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#83939 - 21/03/17 05:32 PM Victa Ignition Module  
speedy  Offline
Apprentice level 3
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 260
Bundaberg
Just a quick question.
Will a normal module from a 160cc motor work in a Power Torque motor.
speedy


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#83944 - 21/03/17 07:16 PM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: speedy]  
NormK  Offline
SENIOR TECHNICIAN
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,110
Melbourne
Speedy, I guess you are talking about a module from a full crank, not sure but at a guess I see no reason why it wouldn't


#83946 - 21/03/17 07:24 PM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: NormK]  
jefffrombrisbane  Offline
Novice
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 31
Qld
Hi, I have been assured that they are the same, as long as the Powertorque is the one WITHOUT the combined coil and module.

Having said that I bought a new generic module to fit to my full crank (side starter) but it did not fix the problem. Still very weak spark. Maybe the coil but not sure and the coils are too expensive to experiment. It passes the simple resistance test but that does not mean its a good coil. I'll just have to wait till I find a whole unit cheap I suppose.

All the best
Jeff


#83948 - 21/03/17 08:12 PM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: speedy]  
NormK  Offline
SENIOR TECHNICIAN
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,110
Melbourne
Jeff, I find it rare to have a spark problem with these, if it has spark it is usually good enough. I had a bloke bring 3 coils to me that he believed were no good, one was new, he was chasing his tail with it for weeks, testing this,testing that. I put each of them on a motor and everyone of them worked fine. 95% of the problems are carby


#83950 - 21/03/17 10:02 PM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: NormK]  
Ltdkc83  Offline
Novice
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 15
Shepparton
Hey guys. This no spark thing is interesting. I've had this issue twice with the same mower and once on my Victa 160 go kart engine. My mower is a full crank victa utility running points and a g3 carby with no kill wires the moment and I've found that when I've had no spark, I've pulled the flywheel off and slid the coil closer to the flywheel magnet. Simply bend that little tab that's on the prong the coil sits on, slide the coil forward so that it is sitting perfectly flush with the end of the prong, then bend the tab back making sure the coil hasn't slid backwards, then get some thin cardboard like from a wheetys box and cut out a smallish square out, enough that you can fold it up a few times so you can use it as a chock at the back of the coil to stop it from moving back away from the flywheel magnet. You want that coil as close as possible to the magnets. I've solved no spark issues 3 times simply by getting the coil further forward. Now in the events of no spark, that's my go to thing when starting the process of elimination. Hope this may be of some help. If anything I've written is confusing, I'm more than happy to take a picture of what I've done to show you, as sometimes the picture is definitely worth the thousand words. Cheers


#83963 - 22/03/17 06:25 AM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: speedy]  
speedy  Offline
Apprentice level 3
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 260
Bundaberg
Hello Jeff,
Do what ltd said and clean coil surface and flywheel surface, make the gap .025mm.
I pu a .025mm brass feeler gauge in place and the magnets hold it tight. Tighten up the nuts, and see it it works.
I have got a good spark by cleaning and closing the gap...... many times.
Should find coils at tip shops or mower wrecker if hey have them .
I will try my module out of my full crank 160 and if it works , will have spare coil, What are the numbers on your coil?

speedy


#83979 - 22/03/17 08:34 PM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: speedy]  
jefffrombrisbane  Offline
Novice
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 31
Qld
Hi,

Wow, what great responses. This is a wonderful forum.

Norm,
You may be right about the carby. Strangely this carby has always been very slow to fill the float bowl when starting after a few weeks stopped. I thought it might have been a partially clogged in-tank fuel filter but now I'm not so sure. This carby is the early one with the idle adjustment already there. Years ago I removed the kill switch wires to a new push button switch. I have a carby on a Powertorque which goes like a rocket. Too fast actually it needs your modification. I'll swap it over to see if there is any improvement.

Ltd and Speedy,

That coil modification interests me. I actually did get it to run last Saturday with the coil air gap very close. It actually touched the flywheel and made a tapping noise.When I put it slightly further away no further action.

The coil is MAO 5506A but it looks like that MAO 5529 will fit. I do need a new coil anyway as with all the attention it received one of the metal low tension tags has broken, I was able to solder on a wire and it did run after that but it will be problematic in the long term.

From what I see the mods suggested involve moving the coil further up the centre armature prong closer to the flywheel. Hmm thats not difficult to do but you would think it wouldn't make any difference as the induced magnetism should flow right through those prongs. But it obviously does so I'll try it. By the way on my mower that spring clip has always had the tag on the side away from the flywheel , not on the other side as seems common.

I have a new module which may not be needed although the old one showed 6.55Kohm supposedly too high. Its a pity you are so far away Speedy , postage would be expensive.

Also, has anyone found a way of getting a feeler gauge in to the air gap on the starter side without removing the side starter. Its easy to get one in if you take the starter off but that is not for the fainthearted.

I had pretty much given up and was thinking of giving this unit a long holiday in a far away corner under the house but now I am inclined to try once more.

Thanks very much
Jeff



#83991 - 23/03/17 02:44 AM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: speedy]  
Gizmo  Offline
Qualified Junior
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 485
brisvegas
gday Jeff.
all too often when i seem to do everthing that should alleviate spark probs.
ive found many times its just a bad or dirt filled end on the spark plug lead.


#83995 - 23/03/17 04:23 AM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: speedy]  
NormK  Offline
SENIOR TECHNICIAN
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,110
Melbourne
Jeff as for the carby mod I don't even bother trying to start one until I have modded the carb. I just did one for my grandson this afternoon, he picked up a good condition powertorque and catcher for $7, I did the carb and off he went pretty stoked with an good condition,easy starting mower. The bloke he got it from just wanted to "get rid of that piece of junk" I haven't done the Tilta Cut edger yet but will be exactly the same once I mod the carby, so simple and so effective


#84019 - 24/03/17 07:03 AM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: speedy]  
speedy  Offline
Apprentice level 3
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 260
Bundaberg
Jeff,
Just rereading and tinkering today.
My 160cc full crank module gives a spark on my power torque engine.. so that answers my original question. But I would like proper connections , save me bodgeeing up a fix.

The two modules are different , different connections.
[Linked Image]
The left one is for power torque , right for full crack.
If you have a spark, your module and coil are working. You might just have to clean surfaces flywheel, coil, adjust gap, check coil to plug wire, it unscrews, may need a new piece. Plug rubber end, spark plug. earth where module connects
Clean carb so starting with a fresh engine.....

You probably don't need a coil, but I have one here MAO 5506A, you can have for postage and handling $10. Or I'd swap it for a module if it's the smaller pt one.

cheers
speedy


#84022 - 24/03/17 09:19 AM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: speedy]  
jefffrombrisbane  Offline
Novice
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 31
Qld
Thanks Speedy,

Those modules are exactly the ones I have. The new generic module is like the one with the spade connector and the other is the one from the full crank.

Let me see how I go with cleaning magnets, adjusting coil air gap, perhaps relocating the coil on the armature prong and swapping carbys. If I can get it to start easily, I really need another coil anyway as the one I have is missing a low tension spade connector although I have soldered on a wire.

While you have those modules out, it might be worth checking resistance with a multimeter. The new one I have shows 4.55Kohms while the old one is 6.55Kohms. 6.55 is supposed to be way too high but now I'm not so sure. If I can get it to spark well I'm going to try the old module back on. I suspect it will still go but only time will tell. It would be interesting to know what yours show.

Its not that there is no spark at all. There is sometimes if you really pull it over hard with no compression. Its been getting harder to start for years but would go if the plug was perfectly clean. The spark on my very reliable Powertorque seems much stronger.

Let me see what happens over the weekend. We may have a swap on.

Thanks

Jeff



#84032 - 24/03/17 07:40 PM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: speedy]  
NormK  Offline
SENIOR TECHNICIAN
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,110
Melbourne
Jeff if you do the carby mod at least you remove carby issues from the equation and I would be surprised if it didn't fix your problem. I have probably modified over a 100 of these carbs and no issues once they are set up correctly


#84033 - 24/03/17 09:27 PM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: NormK]  
jefffrombrisbane  Offline
Novice
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 31
Qld
Ok Norm,

I'm not sure which carby I have. Its a full crank with a plastic carburetor but it has the idle adjustment already there although it does not seem to make a lot of difference. Strangely this mower does not overrev like my Powertorque. It runs very nicely if I can get it to go.

The other mower I have is a Powertorque, carby looks much the same but no idle screw. The Mods are different aren't they? I'll swap over the carbs first, my Powertorque starts very easily so its carby must be OK although it runs too fast, can only use about half throttle.

Thanks again for all your help.
Jeff


#84036 - 24/03/17 10:08 PM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: speedy]  
NormK  Offline
SENIOR TECHNICIAN
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,110
Melbourne
Jeff the mods are only different in the G4 because the kill switch ramp is different, but at least with the G4 you have the idle screw adjuster.This still requires the washers under the cam and this effectively completely closes the poppet with the throttle closed, you then slowly open the poppet using the adjuster screw to get the desired tick over. Very simple once you understand it


#84040 - 25/03/17 04:24 AM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: NormK]  
jefffrombrisbane  Offline
Novice
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 31
Qld
OK Norm,

So the G4 is the one with the idle screw adjuster, the G3 is the similar one without the idle screw. Whats the LM then? Or is this marked somewhere on them and I have missed it?

Sorry but I have never really understood these carbys other than to disconnect the kill switch which I do by cutting the wires but leaving the probes in their original place. If I take those probes out on some of them everything seems to lock up.

Thanks
Jeff


#84045 - 25/03/17 05:08 AM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: speedy]  
NormK  Offline
SENIOR TECHNICIAN
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,110
Melbourne
Jeff the G3 is an alloy carby, and completely different, it was fitted to the earlier full cranks. The Powertorques were fitted with the LM. If you take the kill switch probes out you can pull the cable too far and it comes out of the cam and then you have to pull the carb to bits to get the cable reconnected. This is why I fit a 6mm bolt in the kill switch hole, does 2 things, I can adjust it to stop the spider from dropping off the top of the cam and it also prevents the cam going too far and dropping the cable out


#84060 - 25/03/17 09:26 PM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: jefffrombrisbane]  
LRT  Offline
Apprentice level 4
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 325
Garvoc, SW Victoria, Australia
I also have spent countless hours trying to diagnose a very weak spark on a full crank Victa 160 engine.

It would only spark intermittently with a clean and perfectly dry spark plug with the gap reduced to 2 thou. Even then, it would only spark if it was rotated rapidly with an electric drill.

The coil and module all worked when swapped over to a replacement Victa 160 engine that Norm kindly rebuilt for me so I could get the mower back to the customer.

The engine does have a bent crankshaft on the flywheel side, which I think must be the problem, as the very weak spark when rotated at high speed indicates there is a not enough magnetic induction to allow the coil to produce a spark at the proper voltage.

I have got an oscilloscope reading of the coil output that I'll locate and post.

At the moment, I've had to put it aside due to many other jobs that still require attention, but I hope to try at some stage straightening the crank and fitting another flywheel to see if that fixes the weak spark.


#84063 - 25/03/17 11:33 PM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: LRT]  
LRT  Offline
Apprentice level 4
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 325
Garvoc, SW Victoria, Australia
Here is the oscilloscope waveform of the Victa 160 ignition coil:

The secondary voltage is only producing a maximum of 2.4kV and isn't producing a proper voltage spike.

Generally, the operating output voltage of a small engine coil is up to 6kV, depending on resistance in the HT lead, plug gap etc.

The blue trace is the ignition primary voltage.

The red trace is the ignition secondary voltage.

The green trace is the ignition primary current.

In another post I'll illustrate what the ignition secondary waveform should look like.

[Linked Image]


#84066 - 26/03/17 01:15 AM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: LRT]  
LRT  Offline
Apprentice level 4
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 325
Garvoc, SW Victoria, Australia
Here is a waveform from a Briggs & Stratton Intek Pro 305:

The secondary voltage peaks squarely at 7.326kV.

It doesn't produce little 2kV peaks in short succession like the Victa ignition coil.

[Linked Image]


#84096 - 26/03/17 07:18 PM Re: Victa Ignition Module [Re: LRT]  
jefffrombrisbane  Offline
Novice
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 31
Qld
Hi, Is that Victa waveform from the motor that will not go? It sure looks odd, the B&S one is what you would expect.If it is from the crook one it would good to know what it is from an engine that runs.

All the best
Jeff


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